Retirement Split

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Retirement Split

Unread postby Phoenix853 » Fri Mar 24, 2017 10:28 pm

Back Story:
Divorced 2014
Retirement split. Done in the back office prior to trial.
- Each get to keep our respective 401K's - Not an issue
- A split of my IRA 47K at the time of service, so she'd get $23677.50
- 2 other accounts from the same financial institution as IRA. She gets one and I get one.

There is nothing on paper and nothing was signed by me nor my EX. The record is video during trial.
Rule 69 was placed on record - link (Basically what was discussed in court is binding.) https://govt.westlaw.com/azrules/Document/N849C9390D61711DF9D628FC4CEFCF5D3?viewType=FullText&originationContext=documenttoc&transitionType=CategoryPageItem&contextData=(sc.Default)

Problem:
1. IRA doesn't qualify for QDRO. So Attorney not needed, but institution needs something signed by judge to split the money. (By April 6 Financial institutions are changing the way they operate (DOL fiduciary rule) and could effect my IRA so they need an answer soon.)
2. After Trial I was advised by my attorney not to move on this until she is ready to take it. It would save me time and money. Basically it's hers make her come and get it.
3. It's been 2.5 years and not a peep from Ex about getting the money.
5. There is about 3K of sole and separate from 47K not discussed during back room. Ex was amendment about getting all of her money.


Options:
- Say nothing and let her go after it when she's ready? Basically let her figure it out.
- Have her Attorney draw something up to Split the money?(He's a crook, and wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw him)
- Have my Attorney draw something up to Split the money? (He has not idea what's he's doing) I would seek different council


What advice say you?
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Re: Retirement Split

Unread postby lionel2013 » Sun Mar 26, 2017 7:31 pm

1. IRA doesn't qualify for QDRO. So Attorney not needed, but institution needs something signed by judge to split the money. (By April 6 Financial institutions are changing the way they operate (DOL fiduciary rule) and could effect my IRA so they need an answer soon.)
2. After Trial I was advised by my attorney not to move on this until she is ready to take it. It would save me time and money. Basically it's hers make her come and get it.


Same situation as you here. In addition to the two retirement accounts which have already been divided, X is also entitled to half of one more IRA and one more 401k. So far she hasn't made any move to get them, whatsoever. I too was told the IRA is not subject to a QDRO, but that I am responsible to initiate the division (?? WTF? It's her money, she should initiate it). So against the advice of my lawyer I decided to do absolutely nothing - if/when she wants her share of the money all she has to do is ask for it. She initiated the two other QDROs so she could do the same for the third one, as for the IRA account I am struggling to see a reason why I should take any action since I am not the one who is woed money.

Any thoughts from anyone else in a similar situation?
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Re: Retirement Split

Unread postby Phoenix853 » Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:58 pm

I've got an appointment with an QDRO Attorney to see if they may have any recommendations.

Questions I will have for Attorney:
-Can My Ex claim gains on the dollar amount discused in court or is that a straight number she will receive?
-Should I wait for her to make the move for her money or take action now? (It's bothered me that I have this last entanglement with her)
-I have Sole and separate Money prior to marriage that wasn't taken into account during divorce and will effect her bottom dollar number. Will I still be able to claim that and how would that effect the money's owed?
- Does Financial institution need a signed doc from Judge? (I've read it's not needed). If so how much will it cost me and ex to have it written up?

All three accounts aren't qualifying accounts. If she wanted to pull her money out of 1 of the cash accounts she could without any paper work. She doesn't know that and I haven't said a word regarding my findings. I'm not going to help her take money from me.

If anyone thinks of anything else I should ask please chime in. Thanks in Advance.
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Re: Retirement Split

Unread postby Mock Turtle » Tue Mar 28, 2017 7:56 pm

As I understand it, a distribution done outside of a QDRO will incur taxes and penalties. Not sure if she could come after you to recover those costs.
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Re: Retirement Split

Unread postby Phoenix853 » Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:47 am

My understanding thus far about splitting an IRA without a QDRO, can be tax free as long as it goes directly into another IRA account. I also think I read that no paperwork is needed to do this. As far as the institution is concerned. all they need is the decree (which only states the split will be as discussed in court, no specifics, unless you look at the video of the proceedings.)

My Issues are:
I'll need something from the courts to do this stating the amount to be transferred. (The amount is in dispute by me for a Sole and Separate amount of 4K prior to marriage)

I've been instructed at divorce to let her initiate since she will benefit. (I'm torn here, I don't think she deserves a dime, yet I want this monkey off my back.) Plus, now that we need something from the courts, I really don't want to run around taking time off on top of the money she's taking to just to split this. This split cost me time and money and her nothing.

I have no idea if she can claim gains if a number was reached at divorce. A very specific number. My defense would be: If the account were $0, she'd expect the full 22K. So she'd want the gains, but not the losses. Hence using the straight number said in court less the sole and seperate.
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Re: Retirement Split

Unread postby Phoenix853 » Mon Apr 24, 2017 3:48 pm

**UPDATE***

Okay, here's what I've been able to figure out with My retirement split.

The IRA does not qualify for QDRO Attorney, which means my financial institution can make the split happen with her authorization of a new account to transfer the money into and sign.
I reviewed the video transcripts and gave my broker the numbers.
The Ex will get 23K put into her I own IRA account.
The Ex will get the community account.

The Broker has been trying to contact my Ex, he has tried in the past without a return call. Now it appears they are playing phone tag. This has been ongoing for at least a 2 years.

This is the last bit of entanglement I have with my Ex, one part is finally elated that this is happening and the other part is pissed that she's taking my hard earned money. Money I feel she doesn't deserve. Perhaps a topic left alone.

Anyhow,
If you have your money in an IRA, you don't need an expensive QDRO Attorney to split your retirement, and may be an option for lesson learned. Move your 401K to an IRA prior to filing for divorce. Just make sure your numbers are spelled out in the decree.
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Re: Retirement Split

Unread postby minuette » Mon Apr 24, 2017 6:41 pm

Phoenix, glad that's come to some slow grind of resolution. Just a smidge of nit-picking:

A 401(k) with a current employer would need the approval of the Plan Administrator to be rolled into an IRA. That may not be possible with some (many, most) plans. In fact, I would simply say that one may ask, but expect the answer to be no.

An old 401(k) (after separation from service) can be readily rolled into an IRA.

~
That stated: If one's decree does not define what happens to an IRA, one may investigate whether a post-divorce stipulated agreement may be filed as an attachment to the divorce.
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Re: Retirement Split

Unread postby spritom » Mon Apr 24, 2017 7:19 pm

Any thoughts from anyone else in a similar situation?


Yup, I was stupidly hopping through hoops thinking the IRA company needed both our signatures. NJ kept no-showing appointments to get the special signature, but I was doing 90% of the legwork just to unentangle the last things from the NJ.

The IRA company recently told me, it's her signature only, not mine.
Well Pffffth!
Ok, so no more worry for me.

Then I got notice that she filed with the court because I won't move the money over to her and she's suing me to force me to sign the form. First hearing this summer on it.
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Re: Retirement Split

Unread postby Phoenix853 » Tue Apr 25, 2017 9:06 am

Thanks Min for the clarification. Good point.

Sprit -
Funny you bring that up. I found the solution for us both to not pay for an expensive QDRO Attorney and all she has to do is open an account the transfer. Does that happen? No.

I was just informed last night that she returned the brokers call and is now thinking she gets more than what was on the video transcripts. 401K, IRA. She is going to have to contact her Attorney to find out. Wondering how good their records are? Chicken scratching on a legal pad.

I've instructed my Broker/Financial Advisor to transfer all but the sum discussed in court out of my IRA into another IRA, since the account number is associated with the split was named.

Ugh, it drives me crazy.

If this ends up back in court I'll ask for the sole and separate proper of 3K be deducted from the IRA, and of course Lawyer fees (but not very hopeful).
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Re: Retirement Split

Unread postby Phoenix853 » Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:01 am

Update: (Glad the forums is back on line)

Recap:
I've asked for the exchange of financials to see if CS is an options. No answer from her or her attorney.
I've already offered her the amount awarded from trial plus gains less sole and separate(about $4K).
I've also found out the IRA doesn't qualify for QDRO attorney to split the IRA. My financial institution can just transfer the funds to her account. She refused to open an account. Refused to give me Sole and Separate ($4K), and want's gains.

I've move my half of the money out of that account into another IRA and l left my version of her half in the account and didn't invest it in anything. I'v not going to create gains for losses for her any longer.

The Ex has retained the Qdro attorney to handler her share of my IRA. He asked for all the IRA documents from 2014-present or he'd take me to court and ask for attorney fees. I had to hire an attorney to handle him.

The Ex wants her share plus gains and the sole and separate I'm asking for. Greedy!

My Attorney sent a letter and I'm in a holding pattern.
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