The other side is everyone but you

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The other side is everyone but you

Unread postby dadforever » Sat Apr 08, 2017 11:34 pm

One of the few important issues that I seldom see discussed on this board is the experience of dealing with family, friends, and other people that may be important in our cases (but don't necessarily work for the court). This could include all sorts of people like neighbors, extended family, our children's friends parents, to coaches, mental health professionals, etc..

I think this subject is important. Over time I've come to believe that the family court system is actually a reflection of pervasive social attitudes and belief systems held by the majority of modern present day society. You see, it's very easy to develop an intense dislike and even disgust for judges, GALs, attorneys, etc that we don't have a personal relationship with and never will. But what happens when we come to face to face with loved ones and friends that also want to hurt our relationships with our children? I don't have all the answers. I just know that I've come to recognize certain patterns in the people that I've come into contact with over the years. I'd like to share some of what I've seen. It should be noted that many, if not most of the people I've come across, are well meaning even if they are misinformed and/or deluded. Some observations:

1. There is a certain type of person that will dig in and fight for you, but only up to a certain point. This 'point' is different depending on the person, but tends toward societal norms, and established protocols. If your ex is withholding your weekend parenting time, you can expect them to go to the mat for you. Oftentimes these people are very outspoken in your defense. Thus, I've made the mistake on more than one occasion of mistakenly taking someone like this for a long term advocate. However, if you push for more time than their personal belief system allows, or you start painting outside the lines of their circumscribed personal protocol (which is really based on societal protocol), these people can turn on you very quickly. Despite what they might say, their actions will show that they think you are the unreasonable one if you expect more than what they believe to be standard.
Only other observation is that they tend to misuse the word reasonable. Example: (Dad)"I won't negotiate any less time than 50/50." (Reply): "I think you should maybe come down to every other weekend and 3 day weekends during holidays, plus school vacation. that would be reasonable (implying that not caving would be unreasonable)" Variation would be "the court would think that is reasonable (couched, but same basic meaning).

2. There is a type that tends to 'get it', but will only fight for you behind the scenes. These people are often smart, they can read between the lines, they are 'ahead of the curve'. Thus they can be very helpful to your case in certain ways, even going so far to stick their neck out for you. They will call in a favor, try to talk sense into your ex, go out of their way to help you by privately reassuring your child how much you love them, they will counsel and commiserate with you, give you their time if they think it will help, etc....Unfortunately its been my experience that this type tends to conclude that publicly helping you will put themselves in harms way. As opposed to type number 1, they will often not be willing to publicly help you at all. Testifying as a witness, signing paperwork, anything of the sort will cause them to run the other way. As such they can also turn on you very quickly the second you ask them to help in some public way. Their hallmark is that they almost always turn aggressive to fend you off as soon as you cross that public/private line. Although these people can be super useful to you, if you are not careful these people can become your enemy quickly. A word to the wise: do not go after someone like this whether they are a loved one, friend, or just someone on the periphery. They are very intelligent, they know how to 'play the game', and they will fight you and go right to the side of your ex if you make them choose.

3. Another type is a well intentioned talker. They can be very agreeable with your position in the abstract. In fact if things go smoothly, they probably do agree with you and would be more than happy to act on your behalf. The catch: they are with you as long as there is no hint of present conflict. Once that conflict comes, you can expect them to make any and every excuse for your ex. If you remove all the rationalizations and justifications, what they essentially believe is that accountability is not for women; it's only for men. Thus if you continue to push for accountability of your ex, eventually they will conclude that [b]you are the unreasonable one and will act accordingly. Like the other types, there is a danger of losing someone like this, but it tends to happen slowly and insidiously as opposed to quickly.

These are a few examples of what I've seen, there is sure to be more.
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Re: The other side is everyone but you

Unread postby Fatheroffour » Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:49 am

Only other observation is that they tend to misuse the word reasonable. Example: (Dad)"I won't negotiate any less time than 50/50." (Reply): "I think you should maybe come down to every other weekend and 3 day weekends during holidays, plus school vacation. that would be reasonable (implying that not caving would be unreasonable)" Variation would be "the court would think that is reasonable (couched, but same basic meaning).


Yeah, reasonable can be a squishy term . For example, many people dont consider children an asset to be split like a bank account and would view a demand for 50/50 as self centered rather than child-centric.


If you remove all the rationalizations and justifications, what they essentially believe is that accountability is not for women; it's only for men.


I believe that you are misinterpreting their belief. While there my be some tiny subset of people that actually believe accountability is only for one gender or another their numbers are infinitesimal. Those people have a hard enough time functioning competently in society and have no business anywhere near your complex custody case. Leave them under their bridge, where they belong.
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Re: The other side is everyone but you

Unread postby Tom Kirkpatrick » Mon Apr 10, 2017 12:56 pm

dadforever wrote:The other side is everyone but you.
^^^ +1
Astute observation, Bro. Very well written. And by definition, that makes you an army of one.

That's why it's important to choose your friends wisely. Hang out with winners. Avoid nay-sayers like the Plague. They will only drag you down.

Tom
Everyone is entitled to my opinion. - Maxine™
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Re: The other side is everyone but you

Unread postby afc » Mon Apr 10, 2017 1:00 pm

I think many of the people assume they don't know the whole story and therefore mostly mind their own business and/or don't want extra drama in their life because of something you might be going through.

Who really expects a friend who isnt a _really_ close friend or an acquaintance to tote the huge load of potentially explosive drama?
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Re: The other side is everyone but you

Unread postby Fatheroffour » Mon Apr 10, 2017 1:16 pm

Most people know they dont know the whole story and prefer not to get involved.

Smart.

However, if you are not able to coalition build and bring the important people over to your side you will lose. When you start, everyone may be on the other side. If you finish in that same position you did it wrong.
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Re: The other side is everyone but you

Unread postby dadforever » Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:16 pm

I think it's an oversimplification to say that many know they don't know the whole story and will stay out of it. A better description might be, they will tend to stay out of helping you but they won't necessarily stay out of helping her.

There is safety in numbers, there is safety in the prevailing sentiment, there is safety, support, and power in one side and not the other (and we all know what side that is). Going after you, especially in a piling on sort of way, is 'fair game' in our society. The reciprocal is not true.
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Re: The other side is everyone but you

Unread postby dadforever » Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:41 pm

4. The lazy intellectual.
One of the more frustrating types to deal with. Dealing with a close friend or family member of this type can be downright painful. These people cling to platitudes as if they were gospel. Examples may be: courts only care about the best interests of the children, men that fight for custody almost always get it, women are far worse off financially after a divorce then men, courts don't hand out restraining orders without a reason, you must have done something wrong to get her so mad at you, etc etc....

The dead giveaway that you are dealing with something like this is that they will invariably respond to facts by reciting platitudes that obviously don't apply to your situation.
Examples: (coworker) "can you buy some candy bars for my kid?" (Dad) "Sorry, can't do it, I'm broke because the court ordered me to pay 60% of my income to my ex." (coworker) "Oh, please, women are far worse off financially than men after divorce."

(family member) "Did you see your kid this weekend?" (Dad) "No, my ex withheld p/t. (family member) "You must have done something to make her so mad at you, maybe you need to do some soul searching and find out what that is." Or maybe even a more infuriating irrelevant blanket statement such as "Men that fight for custody almost always get it."

I've found these people to be so totally committed to their platitudes that logic and reason are wholly ineffective in dealing with them. However, I will say this- they can be turned over time. It can take a long time. They will not be persuaded whatsoever by anything you say. Arguing with them is counterproductive no matter how sterling your logic is. Instead you have to be consistently calm, collected, and committed to your cause. You have to kill them with kindness. You almost have to embarrass them, knock them over the ahead via your actions as to how foolish their beliefs about you really are. The time it takes to do this is often measured in years, not months or weeks.
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Re: The other side is everyone but you

Unread postby Fatheroffour » Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:12 pm

I think it's an oversimplification to say that many know they don't know the whole story and will stay out of it. A better description might be, they will tend to stay out of helping you but they won't necessarily stay out of helping her.


Any sane, rational and intelligent person recognizes the fact that they don't know the whole story of two other people's relationship.

Those are the only people's opinion that are worth listening to.


Not offense, but these post reek of victimology. They'll help her but won't help you. I can't buy candy because of my court ordered child support payments, the other side is everyone but me, my family and friends want to hurt my relationship with my children, the whole world is against me. .
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Re: The other side is everyone but you

Unread postby dadforever » Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:49 pm

Fatheroffour wrote:
I think it's an oversimplification to say that many know they don't know the whole story and will stay out of it. A better description might be, they will tend to stay out of helping you but they won't necessarily stay out of helping her.


Any sane, rational and intelligent person recognizes the fact that they don't know the whole story of two other people's relationship.

Those are the only people's opinion that are worth listening to.


Not offense, but these post reek of victimology. They'll help her but won't help you. I can't buy candy because of my court ordered child support payments, the other side is everyone but me, my family and friends want to hurt my relationship with my children, the whole world is against me. .


I kind of thought you would say something like this. Keep in mind you won the divorce lottery and you are operating under a completely different perspective than many of us. This 'victimology' term is part and parcel to what I was talking about. You have a system where one gender, if unmarried, has no parenting rights and the other has all of them, plus an army of gestappo to extract in inordinate share of income from the victims. It's the very definition of victimology and I would even argue it rises to the level of a generational tragic human rights violation. The use of the term 'victimology' in a pejorative connotation is not just inaccurate, it's insulting and unkind.
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Re: The other side is everyone but you

Unread postby Trevor » Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:55 pm

Seems you are grossly deficient in civics, and how bills become laws.
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