Update 2

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Re: Update 2

Unread postby dadforever » Mon Jan 09, 2017 10:26 pm

Outis wrote:Amy Baker continues to use Syndrome, which has thoroughly dismissed. It has been withheld from the DSM-V for good reason.

Please provide a link to a written protocol advocating for supervised time for a BPD parent.

And I will again reiterate that you continue to focus on your ex rather than the beliefs of your daughters.

E: so snuck in there with that same point. Gold star to SO.


The strategy you are advocating for is pretty much guaranteed to fail. Trying to win over the kids with logic in situations like this does not work. Why? Because the children, who are still dependent on Mom for security, have to go with Moms company line or face the consequences (abuse). In other words, no real choice at all.

Dr. Childress goes into this in detail. That's why 50/50 doesn't work in situations like this.

I'm sure you don't realize it, but what you are advocating for actually puts children in grave danger.
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Re: Update 2

Unread postby Outis » Mon Jan 09, 2017 10:29 pm

So there's no middle ground between 50-50 and supervised parenting time?

Fascinating. Tell me more.
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Re: Update 2

Unread postby hoot74 » Mon Jan 09, 2017 10:42 pm

Outis wrote:So there's no middle ground between 50-50 and supervised parenting time?

Fascinating. Tell me more.

Which part of Childress' protocol do you not understand? What science do you have to argue against it? If you have found information counter to what Childress advocates, then please tell me. If Childress is wrong, then I definitely want to know. (By the way, it is not just Childress who advocates his protocol.)

I do believe that Childress' protocol can end up 50/50 after certain steps (that are not 50/50).
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Re: Update 2

Unread postby hoot74 » Mon Jan 09, 2017 10:43 pm

a dad wrote:Let's build on this and start a custom list for yourself. To get you started:


a dad wrote:• No more relationships with childcare providers.

done

a dad wrote:• Get off social media and stay off this time.

done

a dad wrote:• Get the children out of the middle of your issues regardless of who put them there.

trying!

a dad wrote:• No more relationships/kids with BPD individuals. Learn the traits and stay away.

done

a dad wrote:• No more kids/Get a vasectomy.

Very ouch, sir. Not done yet....
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Re: Update 2

Unread postby Outis » Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:01 am

There are a couple of key issues that I want to quickly address before I end my participation here. I want you to know, Hoot, that this is for others reading the thread - I think you're too enmeshed to be of help.

The first sign of trouble is accepting PAS, while touting Dr Childress who denounces it.

The second is rigid adherence to a protocol that doesn't exist; Dr. Childress has merely offered guidelines to treatment.

The third is a constant focus on the ex. The diagnostic standards are for the child, as is the treatment. But every post continues to be about the ex.

There are more, but these are what I'd consider the Big 3. There is a plethora of information about Parental Alienation available. There is also a plethora of information debunking PAS, including how it has been used as a weapon by fathers to evict mothers from the lives of children. Funny how that's your goal here and you accept PAS and Amy Baker.

Finally, there are key pieces missing. Namely, professionals and attempts at problem solving that are less severe than supervised time. Supervised parenting time is one of the most severe tools the court has at its disposal. Under Hoot's "protocol", why not issue supervised time whenever a child is less than jubilant about seeing one parent?
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Re: Update 2

Unread postby dadforever » Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:12 am

Outis wrote:There are a couple of key issues that I want to quickly address before I end my participation here.


Why end your participation here? This is an important issue. Kids are suffering and so are Dads.

The first sign of trouble is accepting PAS, while touting Dr Childress who denounces it.


I think you have missed the point. Dr. Childress denounces PAS because it is difficult to diagnose, and expensive and time consuming to prove. The whole point is that Dr. Childress uses very specific diagnostic criteria, which he painstakingly goes over in his video series. He explains that parental alienation is actually easy to diagnose, provided the mental health provider has training and understanding on how to do it.
By the way, it is obvious to me that you haven't watched his videos or read his literature, other than perhaps a cursory skim through. He is very thorough in his explanations, overcoming all of your argument rather easily.

The second is rigid adherence to a protocol that doesn't exist; Dr. Childress has merely offered guidelines to treatment.


The protocol absolutely exists. Again you've revealed that you haven't watched the videos nor have you read the materials. I have to wonder why you are so committed to your position when you don't even have all the information.

The third is a constant focus on the ex. The diagnostic standards are for the child, as is the treatment. But every post continues to be about the ex.


Parental alienation is child abuse. Dr. Childress minces no words about this. Furthermore, there is no counter to this type of child abuse other than to take the children away from the abuser. The only other conceivable possibility would be for the abuser to stop their abuse. That ain't gonna happen with these people, in fact their abuse almost always gets worse over time, not better.


There are more, but these are what I'd consider the Big 3. There is a plethora of information about Parental Alienation available. There is also a plethora of information debunking PAS, including how it has been used as a weapon by fathers to evict mothers from the lives of children. Funny how that's your goal here and you accept PAS and Amy Baker.


Ding ding ding, alarm bell!!!!! The feminist domestic violence shelter playbook.

Finally, there are key pieces missing. Namely, professionals and attempts at problem solving that are less severe than supervised time. Supervised parenting time is one of the most severe tools the court has at its disposal. Under Hoot's "protocol", why not issue supervised time whenever a child is less than jubilant about seeing one parent


Again, Dr. Childress goes over this in great detail in his series. He explains that the child parent bond is natural and always present, even in cases where the parent is obviously substandard. If the child doesn't want to see one parent for one reason or another, it's a sure sign that child is being alienated. This alienation is child abuse. The only solutions are to remove the child from the abuser, or for the abuser to stop abusing the child (which ain't gonna happen).
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Re: Update 2

Unread postby Fatheroffour » Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:25 am

If the child doesn't want to see one parent for one reason or another, it's a sure sign that child is being alienated.


Too broad of a brush.
Demonstrably untrue.
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Re: Update 2

Unread postby hoot74 » Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:37 am

I was going to respond to Outis, but dadforever did a good job, although there is one point that I think dadforever did not completely address (and probably can not). That is, I do have professionals who are involved. I don't want to say much more than that now.

In regards to FoF's comment that dadforever's statement is too broad, I agree with FoF, and presume that dadforever probably agrees (perhaps his fingers got tired of typing to add exceptions to his statement).
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Re: Update 2

Unread postby hoot74 » Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:46 am

Outis, I have a thought experiment for you.

Imagine that your child, Johnny, comes home after being with your ex. Johnny appears to have bruises all over his face. This has happened many times over the past few years. You ask Johnny how he got the bruises. He says that mommy punches him in the face. You have evidence that this is true and you have no doubt that your ex is abusing Johnny.

Please select the healthiest responses (can select multiple!):

1. Johnny, bashed-face Syndrome isn't real. You see, people argue about whether to use the word "Syndrome," so your face is not bashed today.
2. Johnny, I want to trouble-shoot with you and come up with the best strategies that you can employ in order to stop this behavior. You see, I am going to focus on you, the face bashee, instead of focusing on the face basher because certain political groups told me to do that. I think that I will teach you how to duck really well just before your face gets bashed.
3. Johnny, even though good science supports a straight-forward path for me to protect you, I am going to have many academic discussions with people about this for a few years while your face gets bashed.
4. Johnny, 50/50 shared parenting provides the best outcomes in most cases for children. Even though it produces horrendous results when there is abuse, I am going to pretend that 50/50 is best even when there is abuse. You are welcome, Johnny.
5. Johnny, I understand what is happening, and I am going to do everything I can to make it stop. The first step is to remove the abuser from being able to harm you anymore.
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Re: Update 2

Unread postby dadforever » Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:51 am

hoot74 wrote:Outis, I have a thought experiment for you.

Imagine that your child, Johnny, comes home after being with your ex. Johnny appears to have bruises all over his face. This has happened many times over the past few years. You ask Johnny how he got the bruises. He says that mommy punches him in the face. You have evidence that this is true and you have no doubt that your ex is abusing Johnny.

Please select the healthiest responses (can select multiple!):

1. Johnny, bashed-face Syndrome isn't real. You see, people argue about whether to use the word "Syndrome," so your face is not bashed today.
2. Johnny, I want to trouble-shoot with you and come up with the best strategies that you can employ in order to stop this behavior. You see, I am going to focus on you, the face bashee, instead of focusing on the face basher because certain political groups told me to do that. I think that I will teach you how to duck really well just before your face gets bashed.
3. Johnny, even though good science supports a straight-forward path for me to protect you, I am going to have many academic discussions with people about this for a few years while your face gets bashed.
4. Johnny, 50/50 shared parenting provides the best outcomes in most cases for children. Even though it produces horrendous results when there is abuse, I am going to pretend that 50/50 is best even when there is abuse. You are welcome, Johnny.
5. Johnny, I understand what is happening, and I am going to do everything I can to make it stop. The first step is to remove the abuser from being able to harm you anymore.


Well said, sir.
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